sogyal rinpoche and rigpa

Post by gort
Recently went on my 1st retreat and it was good. But now I am
confused, only just found out about Sogyal Rinpoche's sexual
transgressions and lawsuit etc. when trawling the net, and I feel,
well, gutted!! I enjoyed and benefitted from his teachings and thought
he was brilliant, I've also been listening to some audio teachings and
found them uplifting and the experience had started to help me with
aspects of my depression; though I still feel an element of scepticism
towards the guru yoga thing and find some of the stuff about praying
to the deity and them hearing you a little, well, more like
superstition!
Something I found particularly bothersome was the amount of money I
had to hand over to be there, I realise there are overheads and such
like, but £230 to someone on incap ben. is a huge sum - not forgetting
the cost of getting to and from London (where else? - not in the North
West where all the nasty working class thickies live! - oops a bit on
the sour side - apologies!) There was also a shop at the retreat
where you could spend skip loads of money on vids, cds, tape etc. not
forgetting malas of semi-precious stones, expensive little painted
guru rinpoche rupas 'n' STUFF lots of effing stuff!! for all I know
these rupas and malas are made in some sweat shop in nepal or
something! Actually the whole money for spirituality gig and the
expensive ecoutrements(don't know how to spell sorry)deal really,
really pisses me off! I think it's maybe dangerous territory for a
western consumer society member, a minefield of attatchment to the
pretties and not the teaching.
So what IS the deal with Rigpa? As I briefly stated, the retreat was a
wonderful experience and I felt quite in awe of the Rinpoche and moved
by his teaching, I don't regret going. HOWEVER I feel a little cheated
re: Sogyal's transgressions, and it has cast a shadow over my trust in
Rigpa.
Help wanted!

well, there's nothing at all wrong with being a sexy guy,
but, his teachings stink

Post by gort
ta G.Ort

Awaken21

2004-05-03 17:20:03 UTC

Hehehehehe, if you are looking for a teacher who shines white light,
and is completely perfect you are going to have a hell of a time at
this. :-)

If his teachings have helped you, be grateful. Meanwhile understand
that he is human and is subject to all the flaws inherent in being
human, you should probably not take this as an excuse for you to judge
his behavoir. It's actually probably better that your childish awe
has been dispelled, now you'll be more likely to put teachings into
practice and see how they work for you rather than just take one
personalities opinion as the 'Enlightened' one.

Akaliko

2004-05-03 07:08:38 UTC

Why do you need "help"?

Akaliko

2004-05-03 14:48:39 UTC

Post by Akaliko

Why do you need "help"?

If you have the slightest doubt with a master, if you cannot have total
surrender to a master, if deep inside of you is struggling,.... don't waste
your time.
LEAVE him. You'll not regret, I promise you.
Afterall, he's not the only one who give talks about Buddha's teachings,
he's not the only one who can organize wonderful retreats. And, he's not the
only one that can disappoint his devotees. :(
Yourself is the only person you have all the right to *change*. You cannot
change another person, nor give high expectations of another person.

"The first thing to remember is that, the master really does not work. He is
there, his presence works, but the presence can work only if you have trust.
If you don't have trust, nothing can be done."
Osho - With your total heart -

Move on!..... and have a nice day! :)

Tad Perry

2004-05-03 08:16:55 UTC

One of the things you're going to have to learn to let go of is cultural,
moral, ethical preconceptions. None of this "it's bad" just because someone
put it on a list of Bad Things No One Shall Do.

Buddhism does not agree that there is a list of bad things that are always
bad and always to be avoided.

Although transgressions of the One Law (the Golden Rule) are to be avoided,
there is no list that, if followed, will keep one to the right of an
arbitrary spiritual line.

tvp

Pema

2004-05-03 16:21:45 UTC

Most of your questions should be directed to the Sangha where you
go, none of us where there. none of us can speak for them. i have no
clue about the situation. I can hazrd to say this. tibetan buddhism
has altars. altars focus attention, dependant on what you are
practcing, you may choose to have one of the status as a focus aid. No
Tibetan buddhist center, gompa or monestary will turn you away from
the teachings due to a lack of funds. There are even work study
programs if you have no money but would like to help....I also hazard
to bet that your room and board was taken care of by the amount you
stated.
also remeber the cost of insuring a place for when a retreat goes
on...the additional bills that the lay sangha never sees. It can be
very expensive.
your expectations got smashed, you wanted a "snuggy retreat" and yet
the real world came crashing in, that's because there is no seperation
from the 'real" world. Our emotional, mental and spiritual maturity
are not dependant on circumstances. You fell to the negative view. No
retreat in Tibetan Buddhism has ever been snuggy, TB retreats dig our
cooties out for us to look at and let go. It is tantra on the road...
I feel for you, I really do. and I do understand how this has hurt and
disapointed you. I am however being your friend when i tell you that
the issue is with you. there are reasons that the retreats are as they
are. It can only behoove you to attempt understanding via the sangha
there, find someone you feel connected to and ask them, don't ask with
accusations, but speak with your heart open, if they do not answer to
any satsifaction, this may not be your ssangha. As far as Rinpoche is
concerned, he is a man who fux'd up. he lost sight of the truth and
fell down. tho the sum of his life is far greater than that. it's
about perspective and learning we are never to big to fall if we let
the ego slip in. he was not an enlightened man. he still needed karmic
experiences to reach that level. The worst of it is, how does a man
still go through shit to grow when no one around him wants him to?
what he did was bad, that's why it's karma....the lesson isn't just
for him, but for his sangha as well.
pema

Tad Perry

2004-05-03 20:56:12 UTC

Post by Pema

The lesson is not: "Do not have sex with students."

The lesson is: "Do not have sex with immature women who will run off and
claim abuse."

I'm disappointed that so many of you just parrot and repeat what your
culture tells you to.

"X is always wrong."

"X is always wrong."

"X is always wrong."

"Let's punish those who do X."

"Let's punish those who do X."

"Polly wanna cracker?"

tvp

Evelyn Ruut

2004-05-03 22:43:21 UTC

Post by Tad Perry
The lesson is not: "Do not have sex with students."
The lesson is: "Do not have sex with immature women who will run off and
claim abuse."
I'm disappointed that so many of you just parrot and repeat what your
culture tells you to.
"X is always wrong."
"X is always wrong."
"X is always wrong."
"Let's punish those who do X."
"Let's punish those who do X."
"Polly wanna cracker?"
tvp

Tad, I am sorry to tell you that you just don't get it. I am not going to
go into what I know or how I know it, but you are so wrong that it is
totally off the wall.

There are reasons why people who are in positions of power, of mentorship,
of treating others for their health, mental or physical, or being seen as
clergy to those others, should not indulge in interpersonal relationships
with them, because it interferes with objectivity, provides a distracting
influence, or can all too easily be seen as taking unfair advantage.

There are laws against it for doctors and psychiatrists, and it is
considered unethical for perfectly good reasons for various kinds of clergy
as well. It just isn't smart.

Just because YOU don't see it doesn't make it right. You are reading
things into this from a personal standpoint, not knowing or understanding
the scenario. There have been many discussions of that particular lama on
this newsgroup. He's a bad boy.

--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

David

2004-05-07 22:09:23 UTC

Tad, I am sorry to tell you that you just don't get it. I am not going to
go into what I know or how I know it, but you are so wrong that it is
totally off the wall.

I'm relatively new here, so bear that in mind. And I certainly don't
mean to offend, but is is you Evelyn who doesn't get it. I'll try to be
clear on this

Post by Evelyn Ruut
There are reasons why people who are in positions of power, of mentorship,
of treating others for their health, mental or physical, or being seen as
clergy to those others, should not indulge in interpersonal relationships
with them, because it interferes with objectivity, provides a distracting
influence, or can all too easily be seen as taking unfair advantage.

What is the position of power that the Rinpoche has? Any power he or
anyone else has comes from your grant of authority to them. You live in
the country that gave the world the notion that the power of government
emanates from the people. Yet every day most of us grant power and
authority to people in particular positions without thinking about it,
through inertia. For many of us it helps makes the world predictable,
easy to understand, and something we don't have to work at. We come to
see this power relationship as fundamental. So, it seems to me, when you
went looking for some spiritual connection you had this same pattern in
the back of your mind. Maybe that is to be expected as the christian
pattern is much the same. So now the question is what are _you_ going to
do? Perhaps you should be looking for a spiritual connection which
empowers you rather than making you subserviant to someone else in
authority.

Post by Evelyn Ruut
There are laws against it for doctors and psychiatrists, and it is
considered unethical for perfectly good reasons for various kinds of clergy
as well. It just isn't smart.

The reasons for these laws are quite clear, most people accept without
question the authority of doctors. And since doctors are not perfect,
governments have generally set up these laws to protect patients. But if
you got one of these abusive doctors would you see that as a reason for
not taking care of your health?

Post by Evelyn Ruut
Just because YOU don't see it doesn't make it right. You are reading
things into this from a personal standpoint, not knowing or understanding
the scenario. There have been many discussions of that particular lama on
this newsgroup. He's a bad boy.

This is not about the Rinpoche. This is about you. You can stand in
judgement of him if you like, but what is that going to gain you when it
comes to your spiritual quest? The Rinpoche is on his own path and will
have to deal with anything that results from his actions. So your paths
ran parallel for a brief time, there is no reason that you can't learn
from that time just as you learn from your interactions with others. But
, and I believe this is the key, these are your decisions and efforts to
make - make them because that is what you do, not because it is what
some guru tells you to do.

Best,
David

gort

2004-05-08 14:19:19 UTC

Tad, I am sorry to tell you that you just don't get it. I am not going to
go into what I know or how I know it, but you are so wrong that it is
totally off the wall.

I'm relatively new here, so bear that in mind. And I certainly don't
mean to offend, but is is you Evelyn who doesn't get it. I'll try to be
clear on this

Gort here ;-)

The whole power deal, is much more complex than you seemingly make
out. I dig what you're saying baby;-) BUT, power emanating from the
people? My arse! sorry! If only it were true, most of the world came
out and made their feelings known about the war in Iraq, (inertia?),
and guess what, we weren't listened to by the benevolent UK and USA
govs.

Abuse is a very complex issue. We both do, and do not give permission
for abuse. If we consider for a moment the way women in particular
are sociolised,and programmed. First of all, the way I see it, we are
programmed to believe that our power resides in our sexuality. Our
most valuable asset is not our minds, spirituality, intelligence
etcetera but how beautiful/fuckable we are. If you don't buy that,
check out our cultural history in the west. Our most celebrated role
models are sexy, have inspired men to great things - through their
sexuality (check out the notion of the muse in art and literature)>
For many years I worked in the Youth service, particularly with young
women, I helped deliver training programmes about self-esteem,
assertiveness and self-defence. In eight years I did not meet one yw.
with high self esteem, culturally y.w. (and it starts early) feel
dis-empowered, not good enough - socially, nearly all the sad
complaints I heard were about girls feeling too fat, not pretty enough
and felt it was their role in life to be sweet and yielding to the
needs of others and that saying NO was rude or hurtful. Now not all
women feel like that I'm sure but it lurks, the programming bubbles
gently in the background. Please do not mis understand me, I'm not
saying all women are victims.

The way abusers work is very subtle, and very manipulative. It may
begin with the erosion of self-esteem or telling that person they are
special and what the abuser and victim share together is 'special'.
Generally abusers can spot a person with low-self esteem, self-trust
and so on, very quickly - it's all there in body language. So you tell
someone who has no confidence in themselves or a low opinion of
themselves, that they are special, a dakini, a promising student, work
on them long enough and they're yours. Problem is, from the little I
understand, spiritual teachers are surrounded by devotees, if you
sound out your doubts - it's your problem, your ego is in the way, you
lack humility. One is actively encouraged by the sangha or devotees,
the teachings, and the teacher to trust and love the guru. The abuse
you experience is 'teaching' you, burning off bad karma, ensuring a
place in the Buddha fields(?) accumulating merit, siddhis, a gift from
the deity, yab yum, whatever. Give away your £$'s - it's a teaching,
suck my dick - it's a teaching, feel abused - your problem, your
baggage, your naivity(?) your fault!

How many times have we heard of these abuses (rumoured) Adi Da,
Trungpa, Sai Baba, numerous Catholic priests. Living and growing up
in the west does not make us impervious (? Doh!) to such abuse, in
some ways we're even more vulnerable, with our love of the exotic, the
beautiful. We're looking to other spiritual traditions because we so
often feel let down by our own. We see the west as corrupt and the
east as beautiful, mysterious and romantic - a notion that goes back
centuries! We have glorious expectations and a misguided trust of
exotic mythologies and spiritualities. We forget that people are
tortured and murdered, (not to mention the treatment of animals) in
Buddhist countries too.

I have some worries about TB not simply because of the revelations
about SR, I worry that inherent in TB is the requirement to return to
infantile magical thinking (if you say this mantra, the buddha will be
there - for eg) I fully accept, that it's as much (if not moreso)my
perspective and my 'problem'regarding this particular point.

Don't believe for one minute, because we're westerners, we are more
sophisticated in our understanding or choices. We're as vulnerable to
being a schmuck as anyone else.

lotsa love Grto

Post by Evelyn Ruut
There are laws against it for doctors and psychiatrists, and it is
considered unethical for perfectly good reasons for various kinds of clergy
as well. It just isn't smart.

Evelyn Ruut

2004-05-08 14:36:37 UTC

Post by gort

Tad, I am sorry to tell you that you just don't get it. I am not going to
go into what I know or how I know it, but you are so wrong that it is
totally off the wall.

I'm relatively new here, so bear that in mind. And I certainly don't
mean to offend, but is is you Evelyn who doesn't get it. I'll try to be
clear on this

Gort here ;-)
The whole power deal, is much more complex than you seemingly make
out. I dig what you're saying baby;-) BUT, power emanating from the
people? My arse! sorry! If only it were true, most of the world came
out and made their feelings known about the war in Iraq, (inertia?),
and guess what, we weren't listened to by the benevolent UK and USA
govs.
Abuse is a very complex issue. We both do, and do not give permission
for abuse. If we consider for a moment the way women in particular
are sociolised,and programmed. First of all, the way I see it, we are
programmed to believe that our power resides in our sexuality. Our
most valuable asset is not our minds, spirituality, intelligence
etcetera but how beautiful/fuckable we are. If you don't buy that,
check out our cultural history in the west. Our most celebrated role
models are sexy, have inspired men to great things - through their
sexuality (check out the notion of the muse in art and literature)>
For many years I worked in the Youth service, particularly with young
women, I helped deliver training programmes about self-esteem,
assertiveness and self-defence. In eight years I did not meet one yw.
with high self esteem, culturally y.w. (and it starts early) feel
dis-empowered, not good enough - socially, nearly all the sad
complaints I heard were about girls feeling too fat, not pretty enough
and felt it was their role in life to be sweet and yielding to the
needs of others and that saying NO was rude or hurtful. Now not all
women feel like that I'm sure but it lurks, the programming bubbles
gently in the background. Please do not mis understand me, I'm not
saying all women are victims.
The way abusers work is very subtle, and very manipulative. It may
begin with the erosion of self-esteem or telling that person they are
special and what the abuser and victim share together is 'special'.
Generally abusers can spot a person with low-self esteem, self-trust
and so on, very quickly - it's all there in body language. So you tell
someone who has no confidence in themselves or a low opinion of
themselves, that they are special, a dakini, a promising student, work
on them long enough and they're yours. Problem is, from the little I
understand, spiritual teachers are surrounded by devotees, if you
sound out your doubts - it's your problem, your ego is in the way, you
lack humility. One is actively encouraged by the sangha or devotees,
the teachings, and the teacher to trust and love the guru. The abuse
you experience is 'teaching' you, burning off bad karma, ensuring a
place in the Buddha fields(?) accumulating merit, siddhis, a gift from
the deity, yab yum, whatever. Give away your £$'s - it's a teaching,
suck my dick - it's a teaching, feel abused - your problem, your
baggage, your naivity(?) your fault!
How many times have we heard of these abuses (rumoured) Adi Da,
Trungpa, Sai Baba, numerous Catholic priests. Living and growing up
in the west does not make us impervious (? Doh!) to such abuse, in
some ways we're even more vulnerable, with our love of the exotic, the
beautiful. We're looking to other spiritual traditions because we so
often feel let down by our own. We see the west as corrupt and the
east as beautiful, mysterious and romantic - a notion that goes back
centuries! We have glorious expectations and a misguided trust of
exotic mythologies and spiritualities. We forget that people are
tortured and murdered, (not to mention the treatment of animals) in
Buddhist countries too.
I have some worries about TB not simply because of the revelations
about SR, I worry that inherent in TB is the requirement to return to
infantile magical thinking (if you say this mantra, the buddha will be
there - for eg) I fully accept, that it's as much (if not moreso)my
perspective and my 'problem'regarding this particular point.
Don't believe for one minute, because we're westerners, we are more
sophisticated in our understanding or choices. We're as vulnerable to
being a schmuck as anyone else.
lotsa love Grto

WELL SAID! Bravo.

(bowing)

--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

David

2004-05-08 17:29:56 UTC

Post by gort

Tad, I am sorry to tell you that you just don't get it. I am not going to
go into what I know or how I know it, but you are so wrong that it is
totally off the wall.

I'm relatively new here, so bear that in mind. And I certainly don't
mean to offend, but is is you Evelyn who doesn't get it. I'll try to be
clear on this

Gort here ;-)
The whole power deal, is much more complex than you seemingly make
out. I dig what you're saying baby;-) BUT, power emanating from the
people? My arse! sorry! If only it were true, most of the world came
out and made their feelings known about the war in Iraq, (inertia?),
and guess what, we weren't listened to by the benevolent UK and USA
govs.
Abuse is a very complex issue. We both do, and do not give permission
for abuse. If we consider for a moment the way women in particular
are sociolised,and programmed. First of all, the way I see it, we are
programmed to believe that our power resides in our sexuality. Our
most valuable asset is not our minds, spirituality, intelligence
etcetera but how beautiful/fuckable we are. If you don't buy that,
check out our cultural history in the west. Our most celebrated role
models are sexy, have inspired men to great things - through their
sexuality (check out the notion of the muse in art and literature)>
For many years I worked in the Youth service, particularly with young
women, I helped deliver training programmes about self-esteem,
assertiveness and self-defence. In eight years I did not meet one yw.
with high self esteem, culturally y.w. (and it starts early) feel
dis-empowered, not good enough - socially, nearly all the sad
complaints I heard were about girls feeling too fat, not pretty enough
and felt it was their role in life to be sweet and yielding to the
needs of others and that saying NO was rude or hurtful. Now not all
women feel like that I'm sure but it lurks, the programming bubbles
gently in the background. Please do not mis understand me, I'm not
saying all women are victims.
The way abusers work is very subtle, and very manipulative. It may
begin with the erosion of self-esteem or telling that person they are
special and what the abuser and victim share together is 'special'.
Generally abusers can spot a person with low-self esteem, self-trust
and so on, very quickly - it's all there in body language. So you tell
someone who has no confidence in themselves or a low opinion of
themselves, that they are special, a dakini, a promising student, work
on them long enough and they're yours. Problem is, from the little I
understand, spiritual teachers are surrounded by devotees, if you
sound out your doubts - it's your problem, your ego is in the way, you
lack humility. One is actively encouraged by the sangha or devotees,
the teachings, and the teacher to trust and love the guru. The abuse
you experience is 'teaching' you, burning off bad karma, ensuring a
place in the Buddha fields(?) accumulating merit, siddhis, a gift from
the deity, yab yum, whatever. Give away your £$'s - it's a teaching,
suck my dick - it's a teaching, feel abused - your problem, your
baggage, your naivity(?) your fault!
How many times have we heard of these abuses (rumoured) Adi Da,
Trungpa, Sai Baba, numerous Catholic priests. Living and growing up
in the west does not make us impervious (? Doh!) to such abuse, in
some ways we're even more vulnerable, with our love of the exotic, the
beautiful. We're looking to other spiritual traditions because we so
often feel let down by our own. We see the west as corrupt and the
east as beautiful, mysterious and romantic - a notion that goes back
centuries! We have glorious expectations and a misguided trust of
exotic mythologies and spiritualities. We forget that people are
tortured and murdered, (not to mention the treatment of animals) in
Buddhist countries too.
I have some worries about TB not simply because of the revelations
about SR, I worry that inherent in TB is the requirement to return to
infantile magical thinking (if you say this mantra, the buddha will be
there - for eg) I fully accept, that it's as much (if not moreso)my
perspective and my 'problem'regarding this particular point.
Don't believe for one minute, because we're westerners, we are more
sophisticated in our understanding or choices. We're as vulnerable to
being a schmuck as anyone else.
lotsa love Grto

Post by Evelyn Ruut
There are laws against it for doctors and psychiatrists, and it is
considered unethical for perfectly good reasons for various kinds of clergy
as well. It just isn't smart.

Gort - I think we are exactly together on this. My point about power
emanating from the people was theoretical and used to demonstrate that
westerners understand at some base level that power is something given,
not something innate. Otherwise, I don't disagree with you at all. My
point was more that it becomes essential for each of us to exert our own
power in order to escape from what you call "programming."

Best example I can think of is our response to violence and despotism.
The despot controls through violence. We grant them the authority to do
so by our response, our acceptance of their violence. Granted, most of
us see no alternative, except waiting for the next more violent power to
come along. But their is an alternative - the path of non-violence. It
requires that we be willing to accept the infliction of violence on our
bodies. That may even include death. But by being willing to accept this
violence against our bodies, we demonstrate that we do not accept it as
a legitimate means of compelling our obediance. I understand that for
the individual who gets hurt or even dies, this may not be a very
satisfactory path out, but on the societal level it may be the only path
out of violent repression.

In loving kindness
David

Pema

2004-05-04 14:28:56 UTC

Post by Tad Perry

Post by Pema

The lesson is not: "Do not have sex with students."
The lesson is: "Do not have sex with immature women who will run off and
claim abuse."
I'm disappointed that so many of you just parrot and repeat what your
culture tells you to.
"X is always wrong."
"X is always wrong."
"X is always wrong."
"Let's punish those who do X."
"Let's punish those who do X."
"Polly wanna cracker?"
tvp

tad,
the fact that you are disapointed has nothing to do with me and
everything to do with your expectations. You've no idea what culture I
was raised in, have no idea what culture i do or don't identify myself
with. You make assumptions of the most basic things. You did so on
the last thread regarding the Japanese until someone from Japan came
in and said that you and fu were dead wrong.
Let me tell you about one of my Lamas, he is married to one of his
former students. I am married and very happily to one of my former
reiki students.
So things aren't so black and white, the world never is. you'll bear
many disapointments and misdirected anger thinking like that.
chill tad, you've been a bear here lately and it's getting old.
pema

cupcake

2004-05-05 00:07:31 UTC